Comments on: Think of the children http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/ Writings on sustainable, conscious and thrifty living Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:51:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: Beany http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-397 Fri, 23 May 2008 09:46:58 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-397 And a story in the NYT about <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/world/europe/29calais.html?_r=1&amp;emc=eta1&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">immigrants making a dash for the border</a>. And a story in the NYT about immigrants making a dash for the border.

]]> by: Beany http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-396 Fri, 23 May 2008 06:40:50 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-396 I think in EU even though Europeans themselves aren't having kids, the immigrants moving in are...and I suppose much of the backlash against new immigrants is perhaps because these immigrants are popping out kids (fear of the race dying out, etc). I think in EU even though Europeans themselves aren’t having kids, the immigrants moving in are…and I suppose much of the backlash against new immigrants is perhaps because these immigrants are popping out kids (fear of the race dying out, etc).

]]> by: Green Bean http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-392 Thu, 22 May 2008 17:55:33 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-392 Also according to Common Wealth, the religious right's insistence on no funding for abortion and on not promoting contraception has negatively impacted the attempts to reign in overpopulation in the third world. As to having kids, personally I think that if you do not want to have children, you should not have them. I adore my children but never regret having them but I wanted to have children. There are so many sacrifices inherent in raising children that, I think if you don't really really want them, you are better off not. I wouldn't feel pressured by societal norms. I was reading just today how countries in Europe are becoming concerned about depopulation because so many couples are chosing not to have children. Really interesting thread. Also according to Common Wealth, the religious right’s insistence on no funding for abortion and on not promoting contraception has negatively impacted the attempts to reign in overpopulation in the third world.

As to having kids, personally I think that if you do not want to have children, you should not have them. I adore my children but never regret having them but I wanted to have children. There are so many sacrifices inherent in raising children that, I think if you don’t really really want them, you are better off not. I wouldn’t feel pressured by societal norms. I was reading just today how countries in Europe are becoming concerned about depopulation because so many couples are chosing not to have children.

Really interesting thread.

]]> by: Beany http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-391 Thu, 22 May 2008 11:26:47 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-391 Green Bean: Common Wealth is on my to-read list...can't remember who recommended the book to me. Some general thought: I can see having children as a substitute for insurance/retirement savings/old age care/ego...and this will probably be an important consideration once sweat labor becomes a necessity again, but I'm not sure why pooling in resources isn't given as much weight now. For example, I don't have kids, but my neighbor with 10 kids could help me out when I'm 90 and demented...I guess like social security? (I'm planning on being dead by the time I start to get demented). I suppose the point that Jennifer (and my husband) says is valid: ego (i.e. desire to live forever by having kids). I love kids too...but I just do not have the support network necessary to make this a feasible option (ignoring for now the point that the planet is overpopulated and resources like access to fresh water is going down). I guess we're all just selfish or something. We also want some guaranty of safety when we're vulnerable and weak? I was taught the calendar/rhythm method in a Catholic institution and many people do still appear to be heavily influenced by religious institutions...so whatever sex-ed women get it has to come from an institution that commands respect I suppose. And when there are so many competing for attention...its the problem of sorting out what's worth listening to and what's not. But I guess that is dependent on one's social network/culture etc. Green Bean: Common Wealth is on my to-read list…can’t remember who recommended the book to me.

Some general thought: I can see having children as a substitute for insurance/retirement savings/old age care/ego…and this will probably be an important consideration once sweat labor becomes a necessity again, but I’m not sure why pooling in resources isn’t given as much weight now. For example, I don’t have kids, but my neighbor with 10 kids could help me out when I’m 90 and demented…I guess like social security? (I’m planning on being dead by the time I start to get demented). I suppose the point that Jennifer (and my husband) says is valid: ego (i.e. desire to live forever by having kids). I love kids too…but I just do not have the support network necessary to make this a feasible option (ignoring for now the point that the planet is overpopulated and resources like access to fresh water is going down). I guess we’re all just selfish or something. We also want some guaranty of safety when we’re vulnerable and weak?

I was taught the calendar/rhythm method in a Catholic institution and many people do still appear to be heavily influenced by religious institutions…so whatever sex-ed women get it has to come from an institution that commands respect I suppose. And when there are so many competing for attention…its the problem of sorting out what’s worth listening to and what’s not. But I guess that is dependent on one’s social network/culture etc.

]]> by: Green Bean http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-390 Thu, 22 May 2008 01:30:52 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-390 I recently finished Common Wealth and he devotes a chapter or two to overpopulation and families bearing more children in the face of starvation. As Jennifer said, a lot of it has to do with the high mortality rate - which is ironic because here in the cushy Western world, we tend to think the opposite. Why have all those kids when they'll just die and there's not enough food to feed any of us and they'll be sent off to beg in the streets of Senegal or whatever. Research shows, however, that when death rates decline, birth rates follow - though it can sometime take a generation to catch up. Also, sex ed has proven to be helpful as has educating women, which in turn empowers them to speak up about family planning, increases their value in the work force (thereby decreasing years devoted to child-bearing) and gets them started on child-bearing later. I'm sure I'm not covering all of it but I do recommend Common Wealth even just for that chapter though the whole book is worth reading. I now feel that I have a better grasp on the situation in Africa and elsewhere. I recently finished Common Wealth and he devotes a chapter or two to overpopulation and families bearing more children in the face of starvation. As Jennifer said, a lot of it has to do with the high mortality rate - which is ironic because here in the cushy Western world, we tend to think the opposite. Why have all those kids when they’ll just die and there’s not enough food to feed any of us and they’ll be sent off to beg in the streets of Senegal or whatever. Research shows, however, that when death rates decline, birth rates follow - though it can sometime take a generation to catch up. Also, sex ed has proven to be helpful as has educating women, which in turn empowers them to speak up about family planning, increases their value in the work force (thereby decreasing years devoted to child-bearing) and gets them started on child-bearing later.

I’m sure I’m not covering all of it but I do recommend Common Wealth even just for that chapter though the whole book is worth reading. I now feel that I have a better grasp on the situation in Africa and elsewhere.

]]> by: Jennifer http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-388 Wed, 21 May 2008 08:01:45 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-388 I think there is still for many women a tie to previous times when more children meant more help working for/farming/gathering food, more time... Plus there is the "need" to have children survive you. If there is a high mortality rate (even due to malnutrition and starvation), you need to ahve more children... I think some of this is biologically "wired"... along with my insane desire to have children. I live in 800 sf with 2 dogs, and we definitely don't make enough to support children... but I want them anyway. You'd think "wiring" would be smarter... I think there is still for many women a tie to previous times when more children meant more help working for/farming/gathering food, more time…

Plus there is the “need” to have children survive you. If there is a high mortality rate (even due to malnutrition and starvation), you need to ahve more children…

I think some of this is biologically “wired”… along with my insane desire to have children. I live in 800 sf with 2 dogs, and we definitely don’t make enough to support children… but I want them anyway. You’d think “wiring” would be smarter…

]]> by: Going Crunchy http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-358 Fri, 16 May 2008 22:03:13 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-358 I waited until I was 31 to get married and I was 33 when I had Lio. I know that is ancient by many standards! I was busy in school, job, career, life. I also didn't meet my husband until I was 28 - - I wasn't ready to get married at any point or have kids before then. I'm glad I waited as I think I'm 1,000 times a better parent for it. That doesn't mean that choice is right for everybody. In areas of extreme poverty many people do not know how to prevent pregnancy, or it also may be taboo based on culture or religion. The Catholic Church here still has a stance on birth control that is followed by many of the faithful though that level of religious control is not one I understand - - but cannot denounce as it isn't my choice to make. In food challenged areas women may also have very few options as they are poor, uneducated and hungry. Misinformation abounds, and birth control options few. I waited until I was 31 to get married and I was 33 when I had Lio. I know that is ancient by many standards! I was busy in school, job, career, life. I also didn’t meet my husband until I was 28 - - I wasn’t ready to get married at any point or have kids before then.

I’m glad I waited as I think I’m 1,000 times a better parent for it. That doesn’t mean that choice is right for everybody.

In areas of extreme poverty many people do not know how to prevent pregnancy, or it also may be taboo based on culture or religion. The Catholic Church here still has a stance on birth control that is followed by many of the faithful though that level of religious control is not one I understand - - but cannot denounce as it isn’t my choice to make.

In food challenged areas women may also have very few options as they are poor, uneducated and hungry. Misinformation abounds, and birth control options few.

]]> by: Beany http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-347 Thu, 15 May 2008 06:17:17 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-347 That's a a good point your bring up equa regarding motivated/career oriented women. This point would apply to the uneducated women I mentioned. Cindy, I had forgotten about the Bangladeshi women. I did read Banker to the Poor and you're right...I do recall women becoming independent and thus becoming more assertive in the male dominated society once they were able to start businesses. I am very judgmental and while its supposed to be a bad attribute I think there is some good as well. I recall reading an essay on violentacres.com on the benefits of being judgemental...its a view I subscribe to. I think it can color my view of the world so I do restrain it, yet...I can't help myself sometimes. That’s a a good point your bring up equa regarding motivated/career oriented women. This point would apply to the uneducated women I mentioned.

Cindy, I had forgotten about the Bangladeshi women. I did read Banker to the Poor and you’re right…I do recall women becoming independent and thus becoming more assertive in the male dominated society once they were able to start businesses.

I am very judgmental and while its supposed to be a bad attribute I think there is some good as well. I recall reading an essay on violentacres.com on the benefits of being judgemental…its a view I subscribe to. I think it can color my view of the world so I do restrain it, yet…I can’t help myself sometimes.

]]> by: CindyW http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-345 Wed, 14 May 2008 12:21:11 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-345 Beany, I have the same thoughts as you. In my case, it is even worse, since I do have children. So it is BAD BAD for me to say that I am qualified to have children as oppose to some other women. But I do recognize that my thoughts/judgment are entirely invalid because there have been no studies (that I am aware of) that demonstrate whether education is correlated to how good of a mother one can be. I have seen enough wealthy and highly educated women destroy their children and poor women with little education bring out the best in their kids I agree with equa yona that most women with higher education have more opportunity, ambition, and means to move away from living their lives only through bearing children. I remember a report on Bangladesh pregnancy rate a couple of years ago. The report found that when the poor women got Grameen-bank type of small loans, they set up businesses and gained economic power. As a result, the pregnancy rate dropped. Unfortunately I think sex-ed had less to do with pregnancy reduction than economic power, in my humble opinion. Beany, I have the same thoughts as you. In my case, it is even worse, since I do have children. So it is BAD BAD for me to say that I am qualified to have children as oppose to some other women. But I do recognize that my thoughts/judgment are entirely invalid because there have been no studies (that I am aware of) that demonstrate whether education is correlated to how good of a mother one can be. I have seen enough wealthy and highly educated women destroy their children and poor women with little education bring out the best in their kids

I agree with equa yona that most women with higher education have more opportunity, ambition, and means to move away from living their lives only through bearing children.

I remember a report on Bangladesh pregnancy rate a couple of years ago. The report found that when the poor women got Grameen-bank type of small loans, they set up businesses and gained economic power. As a result, the pregnancy rate dropped.

Unfortunately I think sex-ed had less to do with pregnancy reduction than economic power, in my humble opinion.

]]> by: equa yona http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-344 Wed, 14 May 2008 09:38:13 +0100 http://beancounter.blogsome.com/2008/05/14/think-of-the-children/#comment-344 To sum up, education and training are garnered by those individuals and families who tend to be more career oriented. They move away from the village and its traditional views toward child bearing. They are somewhat less likely to be controlled by fundamental religious perspectives that require child bearing as a religious duty. And women who can earn their own way are less susceptible to coercion from spouse, family etc. To sum up, education and training are garnered by those individuals and families who tend to be more career oriented. They move away from the village and its traditional views toward child bearing. They are somewhat less likely to be controlled by fundamental religious perspectives that require child bearing as a religious duty. And women who can earn their own way are less susceptible to coercion from spouse, family etc.

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